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Thread: Talkback: Rescue Teams Slam Techno Idiots

  1. #41
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    Seems Jon is writing a lot of articles with a GPS theme lately, all interesting. Just read the 50% of MRTs use GPS feature. Interesting the use of GPS with the SARDA dogs. Is that like standard tracking in that someone is monitoring the movement of the dogs in case they are missing some area? I guess anything that helps people tobe found quicker is good. Techniques also need to develop with the equipment. I suppose they are still learning the tricks with the latest generation of GPS software and hardware. That of course is part of what LDSMRA are about I believe, working on the various protocols and best practice for the LD MR and SARDA teams.

    Interesting Lorraine. Just wondering howyou couldwork out which of those were experienced and which were not? I'm just thinking of the Scotttish statistic someone put up and how they worked it out. I know a few of those accidents as they made the news. 2nd and 7th line in that list. Sad in both cases. Also interested to know you rescue aninals too. Even sheep!! How many of them die anyway in the fells and you risk life to help a cragfast one?

  2. #42
    Ultra King G wumpy's Avatar
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    GPS to a few metres, and how accurate are maps?

  3. #43
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    "A local outdoor shop was trying to persuade me that the new age GPSs are often only just a few meters off your actual location and this was a good thing. If I am on top of say Lochnagar and the fog has come in I don't want to be just a few meters off with my location because that could mea getting to the bottom ar quicker than I would like."

    prepare yourself for a navigational shock. the ordnance survey site is a mine of information including how accurate their maps are.

    "GPS for the majority of your navigational work then when it does fail you " always a hoot that remark. or when your map blows way, turns to mushor your compass points in the wrong direction then not knowing how to use that gps...

    swings and roundabouts and an even better reason to have and use both.

    "A mate with a good mapping GPS used his trackback and it was interesting to note how far out the GPS showed his location at key fixed points like stiles and gates"

    i find that surprising. very surprising.but conversely not the slightest bit surprised as it depends upon how the unit is carried. to maintain accuracy the unit must have a clear view of the sky which is why i carried my gps on my shoulder - only my head can get in the way (deciding first not to wear my foil cap as protection against alien interference). trackbak works just fine and dandy. i can carry the sat map anywhere as it has a map and you don't need to follow a trail with any accuracy.

    like using a map and compas you must learn how a gps works and how to use it effectively e.g. did you know that if the gps unit loses signal it is likely to continue to exptrapolate your route for up to say a minute (or even longer) which could make a trackbak a more interesting experience or even where you actually are on the displayed map? have you chosen the correct recording frequency i.e. how it determines whether to record a data point (oft overlooked) and do you have enough memory space to ensure it gets everything? what happens on trackbak with a close zig-zag path? when should you manually record a waypoint?

    all is no different to pacing, bearing off, handrails and the like.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by G wumpy View Post
    GPS to a few metres, and how accurate are maps?

    I did say something like that as well about map accuracy but since OS maps are often used in paper maps from OS AND mapping GPS then surely map accuracy is a moot point its wrong in both delivery methods. AS far as distance out I just gave a general metres as I can't remember what zoom he had it on. I do know he has been easily into double figures out at defined and fixed locations (trig points). I am sure since the way maps were originally surveyed using these fixed location trig points I have to assume their location on the map is accurate.

    If you watched one of Nick Crane's programmes he re measured one of the triangulation legs done by the first cartographer who used trig points. That was up in Scotland and using modern surveyingequipment he found out that the first mapping of this was incredably accurate in that leg distance. Not sure if that means all OS maps are accurate and their user's accuracy is of course the reall variable as is the GPS location with those mapping ones. Digression I know.

    Must admit my GPS is an old GPS60 with the enhanced accuracy function on. It has always ranged widely with the accuracy. Horizontal is usually better than vertical which is as expected with the way GPS works IIRC. The newer GPS with mapping a few of my mates have is better but also varies. If you get better then good for you but these are the experiences of me and some others I know. However it is better to have as an extra tool in navigation (back-up ).

  5. #45
    Ultra King Parky Again's Avatar
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    sorry lil i think you have misread my point. for the gps to be accurate it must have a constant view of the sky which naturally is completely dependent upon how you carry it. if you keep it in your pocket or virtually anywhere other than your shoulder (depending upon terrain) it will show variations. if you were to get a gps track of someone retracing their steps using a map and compass there would be even greater variation from their original path. the important thing is just how relevant that information in isolation is.

    it is all part of knowing how to use a gps properly and effectively. just like a map and compass.



    i think nick crane mentioned that over the whole uk there was a discrepancy of something like 40cm - which is extremely impressive by anyone's standards. but at what scale?

    i think 25k maps are accurate to about 5-7m (hells bells does it matter!) a gps can be to 3m. so it all goes to show that being "smart" over a few metres is actualy quite pointless because you don't actually know where precisely you are and is it actually relevant anyway. the gps is more accurate than the map...possibly. the map is more accurate than the gps...possibly.

  6. #46
    Mini Goon Fleegle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parky Again View Post

    the gps is more accurate than the map...possibly. the map is more accurate than the gps...possibly.
    ..... or perhaps both are slightly out in their accuracies!

    But does it really matter for either to be that accurate?

    So long as both are reasonably (reasonably, now there's an ambiguous word)accurate to enable safe navigation, then surely, that's what really matters?

    Also, with good navigation skills, comes good observation where reasonably (there's that ambiguous word again)possible. If you are concerend that you could end up falling down a steep slope, then observation is initiallymore perative than navigation.

    Yes, you will need to the navigation skills to avoid where possible getting stuck.

  7. #47
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    I honestly don't know why the civilian Mountain Rescue Teams are again bleating about an increase in requests for their assistance. It ain't as tho this was never forecast or predicted for goodness sake.

    (a) they name themselves as "Mountain Rescue Teams", so it's not unreasonable for the public in trouble to consider summoning assistance from them, who else should these hapless citizens ask for help from?

    (b) the civilian Mountain Rescue Teams put themselves at the entire disposal of those statutory agencies whose primary responsibility it is to respond to acute public emergencies, i.e. NHS and Police principally, and they neatly back-heel that responsibility to enthusiastic community volunteers.

    (c) best of all for the public, and the statutory agencies, these civilian Mountain Rescue Teams are entirely FREE at the point of use. It don't cost anyone a dime, apart from, the members of the teams who dig deep into their own pockets to become involved in responding to rural and urban emergencies.

    (d) there is no "solution" to this, apart from if rescue teams can't summon enough members to attend a rescue on the lines of "I'm sorry, we're havin a family barbecue and I've scoffed a flaggon of lager", then the responsibility falls back on the shoulders of the Police and NHS who incidentally ARE paid to attend to these public emergencies.

    In short I think that rescue teams should quit bleating about "we're busier than ever, how will we cope in the future" and gently knuckle-down to delivering their free community service in line with Tory Toff David's "Big Society".

  8. #48
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    I believe GPS units will become the norm in future especially on tablet pc's. Yes batteries will fail as can the unit and I can see that people won't want to go to the expense of an OS map when they have the mapping available either on their unit or by free download. Instead we should advise that users print copies of the areas they visit and use these as backup (in a suitable water resistant case) together with a magnetic compass.

  9. #49
    Super Moderator Metric Kate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langsett Stranger View Post
    I honestly don't know why the civilian Mountain Rescue Teams are again bleating about an increase in requests for their assistance. It ain't as tho this was never forecast or predicted for goodness sake.

    (a) they name themselves as "Mountain Rescue Teams", so it's not unreasonable for the public in trouble to consider summoning assistance from them, who else should these hapless citizens ask for help from?

    (b) the civilian Mountain Rescue Teams put themselves at the entire disposal of those statutory agencies whose primary responsibility it is to respond to acute public emergencies, i.e. NHS and Police principally, and they neatly back-heel that responsibility to enthusiastic community volunteers.

    (c) best of all for the public, and the statutory agencies, these civilian Mountain Rescue Teams are entirely FREE at the point of use. It don't cost anyone a dime, apart from, the members of the teams who dig deep into their own pockets to become involved in responding to rural and urban emergencies.

    (d) there is no "solution" to this, apart from if rescue teams can't summon enough members to attend a rescue on the lines of "I'm sorry, we're havin a family barbecue and I've scoffed a flaggon of lager", then the responsibility falls back on the shoulders of the Police and NHS who incidentally ARE paid to attend to these public emergencies.

    In short I think that rescue teams should quit bleating about "we're busier than ever, how will we cope in the future" and gently knuckle-down to delivering their free community service in line with Tory Toff David's "Big Society".
    We tend to penalise self-plagiarism with our students

  10. #50
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    The posts are quite long on this thread.

  11. #51
    Ultra King Parky Again's Avatar
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    which ones?

  12. #52
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    On the Crinkle Crags in the mist last year I was pleased to have both GPS and map - the high iron content of the rock up there makes a compass intermittently unreliable. Having a GPS allowing us to confirm our position allowed much more comfortable navigation using the map. Visibility was such that the small amount of the OS 1:25000 shown on an iPhone using Viewranger was plenty. The only snag with the arrangement was that Vodafone welcomes one to international roaming as it locks on the Isle of man transmitter

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    MetricKate - re your quote: "we tend to penalise self-plagiarism with our students"

    I thinkthat someonehad teachers summed up quite well when they apparently quoted: "those who can do, those who can't teach"

    arrogant pee-taking on your part will impress no-one, even if you've got a Degree in Summat Or Other from a Lefty Uni.

  14. #54
    Ultra King Mrs Nesbit's Avatar
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    The LFTO refugees have started arriving already

    Is that a sinking ship in your avatar?

  15. #55
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    hey where's Woozle these days?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langsett Stranger View Post

    MetricKate - re your quote: "we tend to penalise self-plagiarism with our students"

    I thinkthat someonehad teachers summed up quite well when they apparently quoted: "those who can do, those who can't teach"

    arrogant pee-taking on your part will impress no-one, even if you've got a Degree in Summat Or Other from a Lefty Uni.
    Oh dear, not that old chestnut. That is something oft trotted out by the intellectually challenged.

    I know what you mean, though, my old English teacher only taught English because he was crap at it, the same could be said of my maths teacher.

    And isn't it funny how piss-taking is only arrogant when others are doing it to you?

  17. #57
    Super Moderator Metric Kate's Avatar
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    It's ok, Mal, I'm not a teacher anyway, I don't get such good holidays

  18. #58
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    I'm really confused as to when stating a fact and expressing concern or alarm becomes "bleating", Kate.

  19. #59
    Super Moderator Metric Kate's Avatar
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    er... have you never heard a sheep 'bleat' as an expression of concern or alarm, Mal?!

  20. #60
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    Ah! There was me thinking it meant, "hand over that f****** sarnie, or else.

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