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Thread: Talkback: How To Care For Your Outdoor Garments

  1. #1
    Mini Goon
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    Great article. Thanks for sharing this

  2. #2
    Initiate
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    lets see...PFCs are bad for the environment..Paramo stopped using them years ago..garments need washing ..Paramo suggested this years ago...service washing your washing machine...much debate here over the years about same...servicing your kit so it lasts longer..Paramo have been doing that for years...membrane materials dont work as well as hydrophilic...where have I heard that before...oh, Paramo

    To be fair - what is suggested is a cultural change away from buy and throw to buy and maintain. Perhaps not a bad idea in general...?

  3. #3
    Mini Goon
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    Gof

    Paramo is great gear but remember that it is just a weatherproof windproof according to British Standards. Gore spent £50 million advertising their brand across Europe between 2010 & 2015; that convinced a lot of customers that they need to have a waterproof...

    The majority of hydrophilic applications are actually in waterproof membranes; it was the technology that Lowe Alpine's original TriplePoint was based on

    To get away from Buy & Throw people should embrace GiftYourGear.com

    rgds

  4. #4
    Super Moderator captain paranoia's Avatar
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    Gore spent £50 million advertising their brand across Europe between 2010 & 2015; that convinced a lot of customers that they need to have a waterproof...

    They might have spent a few dollars on providing decent care instructions, instead of the rubbish 'use any soft detergent at the store' they've been using for decades...

    http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/s...stuf/3680.html

    Good article on care, Charles. Says pretty much what I said here back in 2003, on the 13th thread I posted on... Which, in turn, was based on advice from Nick Brown on MtN...

    Paramo is great gear but remember that it is just a weatherproof windproof according to British Standards

    But one that relies on a decent DWR to work. I like to call it 'functionally waterproof'. I really don't care what BS have to say about waterproofing standards; I want something that will keep me dry and comfortable, whatever technology it happens to use. I don't own any Paramo items.

  5. #5
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    Charles - to get away from buy and throw people should maintain their gear until its knackered and beyond any use, not just pass it on to a salve-your-conscience charity (not that there is anything wrong with this charity or any other where reuse is encouraged...just there is something wrong with get rid because its the wrong colour/shape/last years model etc etc mentality).

    As for Paramo not being a waterproof...well, it isnt. Nor are Buffalo's, waxed jackets or any of the other materials that dont comply with "the standards". The standards were written for industry really anyway - to allow purchasing managers/safety managers to buy and supply kit to employees that are deemed fit for purpose

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Jon Doran's Avatar
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    But one that relies on a decent DWR to work. I like to call it 'functionally waterproof'. I really don't care what BS have to say about waterproofing standards; I want something that will keep me dry and comfortable, whatever technology it happens to use.

    + 1 from me on that. One of the things I've learned over some years of using and testing kit is that what matters - and this is pretty obvious, so don't shoot me - is how things actually work in real life rather than what a particular standard lab test or standard says should happen.

    The most extreme example of this was when, at the launch of Gore-Tex Active Shell a few years back, we were shown slides that showed Active Shell was actually more breathable than a cotton tee-shirt, or technically had higher Moisture Vapour Transmission (MVT) figures according to one particular lab test. Hmmm...

    Similarly, when Polartec introduced NeoShell they also argued that the most common MVT tests favoured particular types of fabrics, but real life experience was different.

    Finally, there are now two waterproof fabrics out there which have eliminated the need for a DWR altogether: the new version of Gore-Tex Active, which is for running and cycling use only as it won't withstand pack use (apparently) and Columbia's OutDry Extreme.

    Both have a rubbery-loook outer that doesn't absorb water at all, which means it doesn't wet out and doesn't need 're-proofing' or more accurately, re-treating with a DWR.

  7. #7
    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Wouldn't the outdry be the same as the gore active, meaning that pack use would rub away at the membrane?

    I have a pair of boots that use outdry (scarpa marmolada trek) that i've been using for almost a year & the outdry has yet to let me down. But I just don't think I'd go for something with an outside membrane, the idea is great but I just wonder how long is would last with any pack use? (I feel the same way about 2 layer jackets as well rubbing in the inside against me)

  8. #8
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    Wouldn't the outdry be the same as the gore active, meaning that pack use would rub away at the membrane?

    It depends on the membrane, and some are more fragile than others. IIRC when Sympatex was launched (this is back in the 80s) it was pointed out that the membraneitselfwassignificantlythan the Goretex membrane of the time.

    And beyond that, in time anything will die from wear and tear and someone in the design, testing and marketing process will have to decide what's a reasonable working life. A decade, a year, a (pick a number/unit)...

    Pete.

  9. #9
    ‹bermensch Trevor DC Gamble's Avatar
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    I was a big Sympatex fan myself though, Pete!
    Trevor DC Gamble

  10. #10
    Mini Goon
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    Quote Originally Posted by padstowe View Post

    Wouldn't the outdry be the same as the gore active, meaning that pack use would rub away at the membrane?

    I have a pair of boots that use outdry (scarpa marmolada trek) that i've been using for almost a year & the outdry has yet to let me down. But I just don't think I'd go for something with an outside membrane, the idea is great but I just wonder how long is would last with any pack use? (I feel the same way about 2 layer jackets as well rubbing in the inside against me)
    Outdry Extreme is totally different from Outdry; anyway, Outdry is a construction method, not a certain WPB-layer.

    And Outdry Extreme has protective grid over the membrane to protect against abrasion.

  11. #11
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    I was a big Sympatex fan myself though

    I still have my 80s Karrimor Sympatex jacket (£40 as a factory second). Much of the taping has come away and there are wee holes from axes etc. but it's okay for poor-weather gardening/external DIY (which is why I've kept it). By today's standards it's pretty heavy and inflexible, not the last word in breathability and the hood doesn't adjust for volume, but other than that it was a good basic design in a decent fabric.

    Pete.

  12. #12
    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    I guess its just how I look at things, the more exposed something is the less time it lasts. Notnecessarily true granted but its just how am hardwired


  13. #13
    Initiate zero's Avatar
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    Yes good article and interesting stuff, thanks.

  14. #14
    Mini Goon
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    Padstowe

    I am not convinced with external membranes durability in UV

    Peter

    Sympatex use a Carbon 0 DWR from Rudolf; on top of which it is the only membrane which is recyclable

    GoF

    The standards help those (the majority) who are confused by the whole subject (i.e. those that get muddled up between weatherproof & waterproof); although they aren't ideal - at least they are better than nothing. I think that the degree of knowledge demonstrated on this thread (by Capt P & others) just shows they are not beneficial for us...

    rgds

  15. #15
    ‹bermensch Trevor DC Gamble's Avatar
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    However, cp and the others here on OM Forum are it should be said, extremely beneficial to all of us! Lol.
    Trevor DC Gamble

  16. #16
    ‹bermensch Trevor DC Gamble's Avatar
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    Fantastic, classic great OM Forum gear thread here, all you guys! Great reading.
    Trevor DC Gamble

  17. #17
    Goon Kahti Ryan's Avatar
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    Interesting read. Why are companies investing so much in PFC based DWRs when almost everyone will re-proof them when they wear off using non-PFC Nikwax anyway? Does anyone use something other than Nikwax as a re-proofer these days?

    As GoF said I think Paramo have exactly the right idea and have had for some time. It's just really disappointing it hasn't caught on with many other brands. Not because Paramo is bad, but having a choice of garments in varying "builds" and features would be nice. I wear a Fuera Ascent for much of the year but there are definitely aspects of it I would change, and I would buy something more relevant to my build and what I do if there was a better option.

  18. #18
    ‹bermensch Trevor DC Gamble's Avatar
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    Some people use the Grangers stuff too!
    Trevor DC Gamble

  19. #19
    Mini Goon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahti Ryan View Post
    Why are companies investing so much in PFC based DWRs when almost everyone will re-proof them when they wear off using non-PFC Nikwax anyway? Does anyone use something other than Nikwax as a re-proofer these days?
    Granger's, Revivex, Atsko, Storm Waterproofing, ...

    Perhaps in the UK Nikwax is the most used, but outside the UK it's totally different.

  20. #20
    ‹bermensch Trevor DC Gamble's Avatar
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    I too think Nilwax is the best though! Always putting up links to them on here.
    Trevor DC Gamble

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