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Thread: Non Paramo Windshell with Summit Hoodie?

  1. #1
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    Hi all Just wondering if anyone had tried this and achieved the kind of Paramo performance without being clad in the stuff? If the Fuera Ascent is a windproof and the Summit Hoodie is the pump layer, has anyone tried this with another windshell on top? Does anyone think it would work?

  2. #2
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    They have, and apparently it would...

    Hilltrek do various things in "Cotton Analogy" with a single layer Ventile outer shell, for example.

    All you need is something to intercept the rain and slow it down so it doesn't soak out the liner quicker than it moves water out. I'd guess any windshell should do that, probably best if it has a DWR.

    Pete.

  3. #3
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Or Cioch who use plenty of different face fabrics, although pretty similar ones to Paramo in principle.

    You might just struggle slightly if you go very thin.

  4. #4
    Mini Goon
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    I made a paramo style liner for a pertex 6 wind shirt. Worked ok. it was just hood that let it down really other then that worked as you would expect a paramo to. (i.e. needs to be clean and well proofed)

  5. #5
    ‹bermensch Jim Parkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Clinch View Post

    They have, and apparently it would...

    Hilltrek do various things in "Cotton Analogy" with a single layer Ventile outer shell, for example.

    All you need is something to intercept the rain and slow it down so it doesn't soak out the liner quicker than it moves water out. I'd guess any windshell should do that, probably best if it has a DWR.

    Pete.
    Something for anyone who finds normal Paramo too lightweight? But I guess it wouldn't be ruined by a random spark from a fire.

  6. #6
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    Something for anyone who finds normal Paramo too lightweight? But I guess it wouldn't be ruined by a random spark from a fire.



    Plus, for all of Paramo's claims of "rustle free" fabrics, I've always found they, errrr, rustle quite a lot. I imagine the Ventile would be quieter, and perhaps more thorn-proof if you're doing woodcrafty stuff.

    Pete.

  7. #7
    ‹bermensch Jim Parkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Clinch View Post

    Something for anyone who finds normal Paramo too lightweight? But I guess it wouldn't be ruined by a random spark from a fire.



    Plus, for all of Paramo's claims of "rustle free" fabrics, I've always found they, errrr, rustle quite a lot. I imagine the Ventile would be quieter, and perhaps more thorn-proof if you're doing woodcrafty stuff.

    Pete.
    Both true - actually I want quite a few of the items on that site now - although I have little real justification, only being able to wear one waterproof at a time...

  8. #8
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    Was thinking something along the lines of the Patagonia Knifeblade smock...

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    Initiate Ben Turner's Avatar
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    If I recall earlier discussions on here, some people even suspect that wearing a properly treated Paramo reversible top under a windproof might get you close to Paramo Analogy perfomance.

  10. #10
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    The knifeblade (power shield pro) is almost waterproof to start with, so you could do it but it is considerable overkill in many ways. Sure the summit hoodie would work fine as a fleece though so no problem as such.

  11. #11
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    If I recall earlier discussions on here, some people even suspect that wearing a properly treated Paramo reversible top under a windproof might get you close to Paramo Analogy perfomance.

    People may suspect that, but they'd very probably be wrong... The pump liner works in a very different way to the reversible tops and I think you'd just get wet, because wicking away a bit of sweat isn't the same job as moving away considerable quantities of incoming rain. Marginally less wet than if you had the inner on fuzzy-side out, perhaps, but still significantly wet. Especially if you're not working to provide a driver for the wicking out (the pump liner isn't a wick, it uses the holes in the weave as tubes which move water by capillary action).

    Pete.

  12. #12
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    The knifeblade (power shield pro) is almost waterproof to start with, so you could do it but it is considerable overkill in many ways. Sure the summit hoodie would work fine as a fleece though so no problem as such.

    You'd make the setup rather less breathable than the standard one, because you'll pay with the extra (unnecessary) weather-proofing of the shell.

    Also the case that when Analogy is drying out it'll be a lot easier to evaporate the water inside by soaking in to a less weatherproof top shell than having to turn everything to vapour inside and push it through that way.

    In other words, I suspect it would be a bit of an own-goal in some respects. You ought to stay dry (at least from the rain) though.

    Pete.

  13. #13
    Initiate Ben Turner's Avatar
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    Here you go:

    I have a Fuera Peak windproof. Can I make this waterproof by adding a Paramo under-layer? If yes, which one do I need? 25/07/2010

    http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/g...ion/39261.html

  14. #14
    Initiate Ben Turner's Avatar
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    BTW I understand that the question in the older thread is different to the one in this thread.

    For this thread, I think everyone agrees that the Summit Hoodie should work with anydecent windproof on top, because it is the Paramo pump liner which is special not the Paramo windproof fabric.

  15. #15
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    I wasn't convinced then and I'm not now.

    I have a couple of Paramo's reversible tops (they're very good btw), and I'm a great believer in leaving hard shells packed away until it's Properly Rainng, but experience with Proper Rain (TM) tells me that if I wear my reversible shirts under a wind shell then I get wet. It does take a while, certainly, but the time comes when it's clear it's not going to work with just the Featherlite smock and out comes the heavy artillery (I have in particular mind the walk described here, note how hard-shell hater Clinch is in his hard shell, despite the Paramo reversible underneath and the Featherlite he'd really, really hoped would be enough, and how Roos is in a Velez).

    Parky's shower may have Magic Water that doesn't soak in to Paramo liners or shirts at all, but the rain that falls on mine does. Which is a shame, but there you go.

    Quite why Paramo would bother making a thick, heavy, structurally complex liner that lots of folk complain makes their stuff too warm when they could get away with a simpler, lighter, cooler, cheaper one would be an interesting question for their financial people...

    Pete.

  16. #16
    Initiate Ben Turner's Avatar
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    Yeah, pretty sure that you're right.

    My favourite mid layer is a Paramo Mountain Vent Pull-on. I wouldn't want to TX it on the off chance.

    But I suppose it is possible that Paramo could have an interest in making their pump liner out to be more complicated than maybe it is.

  17. #17
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    But I suppose it is possible that Paramo could have an interest in making their pump liner out to be more complicated than maybe it is.

    Only if everyone else was prevented from taking a light wind shell and sticking a light liner with a brushed finish underneath, DWRing it and finding it was effectively waterproof.

    Furtech's liner is even heavier, Rab's Downpour system never caught on (the one person I know who'd tried it said he got very wet), Buffalo have all the ingredients to hand (including not having Goretex business to lose) but have never bothered with such a system...

    Pete.


  18. #18
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    So, change of plans. This is how I understand it:

    Fuera Ascent + Summit Hoodie = standard analogy Paramo

    Bora hoodie + bora fleece = lightweight analogy Paramo

    Anyone done a mix and match, I.e. Fuera + Bora Fleece.

    I'm thinking about Fuera Ascent, Summit Hoodie and Bora Fleece, for the ultimate interchangeable system.

    Thoughts?

  19. #19
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    The pump liner material is, AIUI, the same in the standard and lightweight Analogy, so it's only the style that will change between the "fleece" garments. So mix and match as you see fit, and any DWRd windshell over the top.

    Pete.

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Jon Doran's Avatar
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    Quite why Paramo would bother making a thick, heavy, structurally complex liner that lots of folk complain makes their stuff too warm when they could get away with a simpler, lighter, cooler, cheaper one would be an interesting question for their financial people...


    As an aside, one of the interesting things about Paramo kit, is that financially one of the main reasons behind its existence is to maintain Paramo's Colombian manufacturing base, which is a social project helping women to build a like outside prostitution.

    I had a fascinating chat with Nick Brown - founder of Paramo and Nikwax - a few years back and in essence, Nikwax as a business, is far more profitable, but Nick has a huge emotional investment in the Colombian side of the Paramo business.

    He believes in the kit as well, but I'd go as far as saying that it's not out there primarily for business reasons, which I respect.

    More prosaically, last time I used the Paramo Ascent/Summit combo, found the sleeves oddly short and I'd suggest trying it for size if you are thinking of going that way. It's not something I've found with other Paramo kit and it may have been revised since then.

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