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Thread: Silk Filled Duvets

  1. #41
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Well you can more or less do that with a slightly loosly fitting, zipless sleeping bag instead Really.

    The 'wasted' down is really what I was trying to quantify above and it seems to be only ~10% or so, so not a dramatic effect. Especially since the stuff round your legs - and especially feet - isn't crushed anything like as much.

    Although there is a valid question as to whether you need anything with a full length, warm/very warm sleeping mat and soon very little reason not to have one of those.

    In my case I'd struggle slightly with a quilt due to non hooded (non winter) insulation and that sleeping mat thing.....

  2. #42
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    Martin Not sure why you think you need a full length mat with a quilt and not with a bag - the lower quarter of either(footbox) are all round insulatedso equal really IMO



    I use a 3/4 length TAR PL3 with my quilt for above freezing temps. Not a full length mat. (Just as I did when I used a bag ). I put spare clothes /ccf sitmat/rucsac or liner (if dry) under my feet

    I generally wear socks and clothes layer - plus if needed, a Rab Photon or Montane Northstar Jacket (both hooded). If no jacket then sometimes a buff or R1 balaclava...

    If it's going to be freezing, I take a sleeping bag(Alpkit PD400) and a full 250g ccf mat instead of the quilt

  3. #43
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Carpenter View Post

    Well you can more or less do that with a slightly loosly fitting, zipless sleeping bag instead Really.
    you might be able to . I couldn't. For reasons given above.

  4. #44
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    I wasn't sure if the footbox did close up on quilts or not. If it is properly enclosed for a reasonable length then sure

    A tiny bit confused mind, as I did think they tended to attach under the bottom of the mat? I know not sleeve style like top bags but surely need an anchor somewhere.

    Certainly RAB put some primaloft on the end of their top bag for folk skimping on mat length.

  5. #45
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    Nah, I think you can attach them under the mat, but having used mine for over 2 years I can't see how that's useful at all. Would 'pin' one to the mat, as well as creating dead airspace at edges or even worse allowing insulation to creep under the mat.

    I've replace the tapes with cords and cordlock, and just have the cords around(under) me and tighten them up as it gets colder. Ditto the neck fastening. If I turn, I turn within the quilt not let it turn with me.

    The footbox on mine is enclosed to calf level, first drawstring is behind my knees , and second behind middle of back. There is a press-stud on top corners for fasteing around neck, drawstring on top edge. I can have it done up cosy over shoulders, but get arms out from sides to reach stuff if necessary.

  6. #46
    ‹bermensch Moonlight Shadow's Avatar
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    As a side sleeper with recurring cold back problems, I'm finding the quilt solution very interesting. I also like the idea of using what you carry around as extra insulation as part of your sleep system although would not that leave you exposed to dampness issues in grotty weather, waterproofs are far from perfect after all?

    Very interesting read.

  7. #47
    Ultra King edh's Avatar
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    I like the idea...tried it; not for me.

    I don't enjoy spending the night (even as small a part of it as I sometimes have to) playing with what I am sleeping under/in. Would rather slide in, tune out, slumber.

    Side-sleeper in general...see the sense in 'sleeping systems'; don't enjoy them unless necessity dictates.....as for me it is not comfy. Regularly pack MontBell UL down pants in winter, MontBell UL jacket year-round.

    At home I sleep a la mode under a skimpy but nice goosey quilt...comfortable. On the hill I don't want to change that much, comfortable is the way.

    I use full-zip bags (Western Mountaineering) and wear tent (pair 2) socks, an LS base T, Patra silk short johns (thanks Parky - not in the Biblical sense), and for my head (lessen the hood is up) a buff or the Mole bunnet. Works well.

    I like the Patra silks as they alleviate the clammy 'sticky thigh/crotch' thing (after a couple of nights out it's an issue), the Mole bunnet as it is versatile and warm. If needs be I put the bags hood up and cinch the shoulder collar.

    The 'system' bit comes in to play as and when...as said I don't like sleeping in too many clothes; but Wednesday night, Cairngorms - a feck-off icy 40-50mph wind down the Coire - on goes the MB jacket...I was in a -9 bag and feeling chilly; hello winter....'whatever'

  8. #48
    ‹bermensch Moonlight Shadow's Avatar
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    Well, my head is the last of my concerns in term of insulation, all that hair serves a purpose at times...

    The one thing mitigating against sleeping in my day clothes (imo) is the fact I enjoy slipping into something dry and clean(ish) after a spot of wipe clean so I'm at ease with the idea of stripping off, even in sub zero temps and stay so for a few minutes (got Alpine genes after all eh...)

    I'm going to try a rather simple but possibly workable solution of simply shoving inside the bag some insulation foam (the thin underfloor one). Might get a bit crowded with the silk liner and my not inconsiderable carcass...That's the one and only concern I had sleeping outside in winter, cold back and I'm not able to stay put on my back, I also move on my side when asleep.

  9. #49
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Carpenter View Post

    I wasn't sure if the footbox did close up on quilts or not. If it is properly enclosed for a reasonable length then sure

    A tiny bit confused mind, as I did think they tended to attach under the bottom of the mat? I know not sleeve style like top bags but surely need an anchor somewhere.

    Certainly RAB put some primaloft on the end of their top bag for folk skimping on mat length.

    Have a read of those links i posted earlier, Martin. They have pictures of how quilts can be used.

    Some folk attatch themselves to their pad. I don't, as i prefer to use my quilt as i do at home.

    As Mole says. you don't need a full length pad. I use a torso pad until the temps hit freezing.

  10. #50
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Oh it makes sense now its mentioned. Not that everything calling itself a quilt does work like that of course. One of TARs, the PHD one say but then that one (quite reasonably, as other markets too) certainly isn't purely aimed at backpacking.

    Helpful for other reasons too. Looking at something like this picture its very clear why you're really not losing much weight at all vs a hypothetical hoodless, zipless mummy sleeping bag. The area cut out is really rather small as a percentage of the actual bag/quilt.

    10% actually seems like a very fair estimate.Of course being zipless is a great way to save a lot of weight, and if this is more comfortable than a zipless bag for people then sure But lets be clear that this is where the big weight gain is. The loss of the hood is maybe best called a weight neutral side effect.

    I actively hate fitted duvets, so I'd go mad attaching anything to the pad.

  11. #51
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    How can not having a hood be weight neutral? A bag/quilt without a hood weighs less than the same bag/quilt with one. That isn't neutral!

  12. #52
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Look, losing the down from the base of the bag/quilt is - with good mats - a pretty clear cut win in terms of warmth/weight.

    Losing the hood though? Yes you lose weight, but you also unarguably lose warmth. Distinctly non trivial amounts of it unless you've covered it elsewhere.

    So at a minimum you have to spec a down hood of decently equivalent warmth in the weight considerations, or use a bag with a lower fill than the quilt to compensate.

    Do I know precisely how the maths for that would work out? Well no. But in general you'd expect it to be pretty well even.

  13. #53
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    I never use the hood on a sleeping bag. Ever. I don't have a hood on my duvet at home either.

    In colder temps, i'll wear a hat that i'm already carrying, so no weight gain. Hoods are horrible things that try to strangle you during the night.

  14. #54
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Look there are entirely sound reasons that quilts don't have hoods - to make them easy to get in/out of and maybe more flexible cf temperatures.

    But lets be clear - for the 99% of us who'd use it if getting cold that is - its a real loss in warmth terms not to have a hood. Just a trade off for those arguably compensating benefits.

    Survivable? Sure.

    But if you're comparing like with like warmth wise I can take a chunk of down out of my sleeping bag to compensate for the lack of a hood. In fact I've probably gained slightly in warmth/weight terms as covering otherwise uninsulated bits is nearly always a bigger gain than upping the insulation elsewhere.

    Oh and lets be serious You'd never wear a hat capable of providing this sort of warmth while moving!

  15. #55
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    I think the case that some people use the hood more than others. Though for summer use in particular I think you're a bit heavy on them TBH Martin.

    I use the hood on my bags when it's bastard cold, and that's about it. It's the Feature Of Last Resort for me. So I'm one step more hood-enamoured than Mike. Roos is a step more than me. It does vary between people though, but plenty have little use for them and you need to consider that when making a general case.

    Pete.

  16. #56
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    I take it you aren't getting a quilt then, Martin?

    What sort of hood do you have on your duvet at home?

  17. #57
    Ultra King Mrs Nesbit's Avatar
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    I never use the hood on my bag. In fact I'm thinking of cutting it off and re-distributing the down.

    Whenever it's cold enough to maybe warrant using it I have my down jacket with me and can use the detachable hood from that on it's own if need be.

    I think hoods on bags are probably great for motionless back sleepers, but for wriggly side sleepers like me they're a nightmare.

  18. #58
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Look. All I dislike - because its plain absurd - is the idea that when you're comparing the warmth given by a given weight of sleeping thing you can just chop part of it off and claim it as pure weight win!

    So you factor in a little bit of weight for the warmth lost via the head and everyone is happy Like via a detachable down jacket hood say so ~50-100g.

    cf whether I'd consider one, actually I would as an option, except that (1) I'm already nicely provided for and (2) there aren't any UK providers. As I said earlier my zipless bag is wide enough to be halfway to a quilt anyway.

    It'd be even more so if I moved the down round to the top and cut the hood off

    Oh and people who hate down bag hoods really should look into quilts!

  19. #59
    Ultra King edh's Avatar
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    I very often use my hood and shoulder cinch; I wriggle but don't have any problems - perhaps its the cut of the bag as I tend towards roomy.

  20. #60
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    All I dislike - because its plain absurd - is the idea that when you're comparing the warmth given by a given weight of sleeping thing you can just chop part of it off and claim it as pure weight win!

    It's not absurd, because if you're not using it then you gain no warmth from having it there. What I gain from a hood is somewhere to keep my pillow so it doesn't roll off: it doesn't factor in the warmth unless I do it up, which I don't do 99% of the time. So we're not affecting the warmth before comparing.

    If you use a hood then yes, it's fair to build it in to the picture. But quite a few folk don't, and others of us only use it rarely.

    (2) there aren't any UK providers.

    Google "golite quilt", restrict yourself to UK pages and you'll find quite a few.

    Pete.

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