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Thread: Silk Filled Duvets

  1. #21
    Ultra King Matt C's Avatar
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    Yep, options vs weight - it's another one of those pesky trade-offs!

    Two fewer options actually - 'unzip from the top' and 'unzip from the bottom'

  2. #22
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    But zips are continuously variable...

  3. #23
    Ultra King Matt C's Avatar
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    So is pushing the bag down a bit....

  4. #24
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    you're on to a loser here Matt

    (unless you can tell me a way to vent my crotch but not my shoulders in a zipless bag )

  5. #25
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Well golite usefully have sleeping bag/quilt ranges with seemingly identical spec, so lets see! Using UOG as they actually weight the things....

    1 season (+4) = 709g bag, 567g quilt. 3 season (-7) 992g vs 709g.

    Half zip bags so ~50g of that is zip loss. Then its a mixture of losing the hood (which has waterproof zones on it in these ones so + weight) and using a little less material overall.

    Its certainly not as dramatic as you might suppose - you'd lose nothing like 100g off an ultra say. Isn't the main reason that a quilt just needs rather more width than a tight fitting mummy bag to work?

    And we could have fun arguing about whether that insulation 'under' you is wasted or not Now sleeping mats are getting better at huge speed and there's more to come - downmat UL/Neo air Xtherm - so this is getting close to being unarguable.

    But if it lets you save some length on your sleeping mat using a 3/4's length on as many seem to do? Traditional but yes arguably midly daft too Still I've got a personal interest as a mat of 183cm certainly isn't full length for me and extra long, still thin mats well.....

  6. #26
    Ultra King Matt C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post

    you're on to a loser here Matt

    (unless you can tell me a way to vent my crotch but not my shoulders in a zipless bag )
    It's hard to explain - I'd have to draw you a diagram!

  7. #27
    Widdler
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    Coleman did a silk filled sleeping bag the Coleman cocoon

  8. #28
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Carpenter View Post

    Isn't the main reason that a quilt just needs rather more width than a tight fitting mummy bag to work?

    Have you seen a backpacking quilt, Martin? A quilt is narrower than a bag. The edges don't touch if you wrap it around you. The ideal quilt will just have enough excess to tuck under you. There are pictures on the Katabaticand Nunataksites.

    A good sleeping mat makes a quilt even more logical. Lots of down in my Downmat 7 negates the need for any down in my quilt to be below me.

  9. #29
    Ultra King Mole's Avatar
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    yep. a real wriggle. would be needed to get into my Golite Ultra if the edges were joined! and I'm pretty slim...
    A fair bit narrower than a bag.

  10. #30
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Um I meant wider than just the top half of a mummy bag Not wider than a sleeping bag cut/zipped fully open. If the edges touched and you could still get in you'd have lost no weight at all of course!

    Taking 50g off for the zips the golites are @14 and 25 per cent lighter respectively in quilt form. And a lot of that - half maybe? - is the hoods. Nunatak down balaclava @110g say, and to duplicate a 3 season bag with a quilt you'd need something like that.

    Not sure why there's such a discrepancy between the two (and I have looked). Anyway something like 10% seems a fair estimate for the actual material and thus weight losses due to not having a bottom to the quilts. Non trivial yes, but also rather less than you'd perhaps suspect at first sight.

    And until recently I suspect the ability to chop your sleeping mat shorter with a bag would often have wiped that gain out. But yes a sleeping mat @430g with an R value closing on 6 could be meddling with that....

  11. #31
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Carpenter View Post

    . And a lot of that - half maybe? - is the hoods. Nunatak down balaclava @110g say, and to duplicate a 3 season bag with a quilt you'd need something like that.

    Why?

    When i was a bag user, i never used the hood. Even in winter. One of the joys of using a quilt is that you only use head wear if you need/want to. I don't use any headwear until it gets near freezing. I always have a hat of some kind with me in colder weather.

    Quilts aren't for everyone. If you are the type who sleeps with only a tiny breathing hole left in your sleeping bag, then quilts probably aren't for you.

  12. #32
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    You add it because we're trying to compare things with the same net insulation, else everything gets a bit (more!) pointless Even if you don't normally use the hood the option is there if you get cold, and does add non trivial insulation when used.

    To be clear - I'm not at all against quilts, just trying to be accurate cf whether there is a real weight gain or not Once you factor in head insulation and the (I presume?) need for a full and not torso or 3/4's length sleeping mat, I think you're very close to break even.

    Of course if your insulated clothing has a hood and you've got a full length mat - probably very rational in warmth/weight terms with the way they're improving - then....

    And I think I'll moan again about Exped/TAR thinking that extra long sleeping mats should be extra wide too. There isn't even a long syn mat UL option. Grrrr. Pacific outdoor certainly have this right.

  13. #33
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    I carry hats/hoods anyway, Martin. What is the point of carrying another one on the bag/quilt if i will never use it?

  14. #34
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    Quilts need a different mind-set from sleeping bags.

  15. #35
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    Quilt at 500g, plus hooded down jacket at 340g, equals 840g.

    Bag at 750g, plus hooded down jacket at 340g, equals 1090g.

  16. #36
    Ultra King Kinley's Avatar
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    Big advantages for a walking couple - we got a PhD double duvet.

  17. #37
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Look I'm interested in the pedantic question of whether or not a quilt does have a non trivial weight benefit attached or not. For that you do have to compare like with like.

    Now if you want to make it a question of a down jacket with a hood vs one with not then thats rational Thats ~50g maybe. A bit more for warmer jackets of course.

    On the UK high street stuff with hoods (esp in primaloft) does of course tend to come with full zips, pockets etc or only on heavier jackets which really messes things up, but lets not unfairly handicap quilts.

    In real terms of course its whatever you're happy with And often people will have their insulation either hoodless or not anyway, ditto their sleeping mats etc. And yes can certainly see it for a couple!

    btw 750g vs 500g is a big over statement of the basic weight loss. The golites are 710 vs 570 for that sort of overall weight.

    So 140g. Offset that vs 50g for that down hood, 40g for a full length mat, ~50g for the half zip on that bag and you're precisely at break even. Which seems a nice place to leave it

  18. #38
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    As long as you are happy, Martin.

  19. #39
    Ultra King Martin Carpenter's Avatar
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    Well and you Just looking after truth mind. And honestly intrigued.

    Really the only thing I'm unhappy about from any of this is reminding myself about those sleeping mats!

    Oh and the new mats might well mean that the objective case for quilts has got pretty strong.

  20. #40
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    You have to think of a quilt as part of a sleeping system. I use clothes i am already carrying to supplement the quilt if needed. Clothing isn't crushed under a quilt, so keeps its insulating value. If i am already carrying a hat, it can be used if needed. A lightweight quilt can be used on everything fromhot summer nights, totemps below freezing, using whatever clothing you carry. It's difficult to find a lightweightsleeping bag that will do that. If your quilt has 400g of down, them almost all of that will be insulating you. A sleeping bag with 400g of down will have some of that crushed underneath you, offering little insulation. And if you don't use the hood, that down is wasted too.

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