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Thread: Latest TGO

  1. #101
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor D Gamble View Post
    I do think for sure they help one with one's 'balance' outdoorsas it were. And especially so over uneven ground, and doubly so when hauling a big load of kit on our backs! Or are we just trying now to compensate from all our crappy feet; born from too much wearing nice supportive shoes and walking as was said, mostly on the flat man made surfaces of modern civilisation.

    I think you have just taken two unproven propositions and stitched them together Trev. Invariably that equates to a pile of horse manure.

  2. #102
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    No, not claiming anything but rather just throwing ideas up in the air to see where and how they might fall. I should though have put in the at the end of my thought there, for surely!

  3. #103
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    fb, calling evidence of walking poles "anecdotal only" is stretching it a bit. They have been in use for at least thousands of years and there's no particular problem finding people who can walk at all with them and can't walk at all without them. And that has been the case since prehistory, in situations where mobility is basic to continued living, so there is no real doubt that they can help (a walking pole is just a walking stick, of course).

    Where you are right is that the quantification of the help is often a bit dubious, especially in those that can walk without them. I'm also quite certain that many users are experiencing a placebo effect: they tell you it makes life much easier because of joint relief, and you can see quite clearly that they're not putting any weight on the things at all but just waving them in the direction of the ground every few meters, so they can't be doing anything direct for their joints....

    So, there is clearly an effect for some of the people some of the time. But it's difficult to quantify how much in many individuals.

    The human body is a very bad test bed for quantitative analysis. working in the medical field I'm particularly very well aware of this!

    Pete.

  4. #104
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    Sorry Pete

    I wasn't stating that evidence of walking poles "anecdotal only". If you have a peek again at what I wrote, I was trying to say that for people to make judgements based on someone who says 'they help me' in isolation is anecdotal. Which it is.

    I have no particular belief one way or another with this, but before making 'conversion' it would be useful to see a study that demonstrates what the benefits are. Yes I know river crossings / stability etc etc. However I get by without, I cross rivers and dont fall in, and I can stand upright and walk while keeping my balance.


  5. #105
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    However I get by without, I cross rivers and dont fall in, and I can stand upright and walk while keeping my balance. - Wrote FB.

    Crikey! All his own teeth too I heard! One of the single OM forum girls will no doubt come onto the thread now to ask you to marry them FB!

  6. #106
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    If you are refering to me Trev - errr I am married before you ask~!

  7. #107
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    I know this fact FB.

    The joke was just that one of the young forum ladies might not though. But never mind...t'was but a little jest!

  8. #108
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    I indeed know that Trev in fact as it were and was responding with the tongue in my cheek then there to the jest which you had placed as it were then.


  9. #109
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    fb, I started using poles when my knees were telling me I had to do something to stop the pain. Since I had a pair for ski touring it made sense to try, so I did, and they helped.

    Since then I've got my knees a lot stronger, and while I occasionally use poles these days my default is not to bother. I prefer having my hands free, and they annoy my wife if I'm walking beside her.

    While there may be upsides to a healthy user using poles, there are certainly downsides: more stuff, hands full, and the much vaunted balance thing is a two edged sword as they're a nuisance if you're boulder hopping or scrambing. Thus, my usual advice is to take on using them if you're having a problem with not using them. If, as in your case, you're not finding your walking broken then I don't see much point in fixing it... The benfit for me comes in relief of discomfort: no doscomfort, I don't use them!

    Pete.

  10. #110
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    Thanks Pete

    fb

  11. #111
    Ultra King Peter Clinch's Avatar
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    Also, one needs to be aware that some things are very difficult to objectively prove. In something as variable as performance over a day of hillwalking it is effectively impossible to properly control all of the variables, so if you're waiting for a study to prove categorically that Superfeet/walking poles/Miracle Substance Q or whatever is a clear benefit then you'll be waiting at least a long, long time and quite possibly forever.

    The claimed benefits of poles are not the sort of things you can easily measure. "I find I'm more comfortable", with what units of comfort, exactly? "I find I can go for longer", and that was checked in rigorously controlled circumstances with nothing other than the presence of poles being changed, including exact route, climatic condiitons, amount of sleep, amount of food, stress levels from work etc. etc. and anything else that might improve performance from one day to the next? A study is only as good as its methodology, and current scientific methodology doesn't work well in highly complex testing environemnts with poor control of variables and poor measurement of any clearly relevantoutcomes.

    I am entirely skeptical about a lot of the claims I read in marketing, Superfeet being a pretty good example. But, I did know I had problems with at least some of the things they claimed to resolve so it was a case of taking a bet against my problems that there was at least something in it: I won't pretend I fully evaluated their claims through study before trying them! While still accepting the effect is within the possible realm of kidding myself, I did find an improvement... that doesn't verify all of their claims, but does suggest they're of some use to some people, and at least to me. That's all a bit touchy-feely, but I know as a jobbing medical science professional that proving things properly is not actually that easy in the case of biomechanical aids for basically healthy people!

    Sometimes you've just got to have a bit of faith and back it up with money. Not perfect, but if you wait for a perfect system you may never get to use something that you'd actually derive some benefit from.

    Pete.

  12. #112
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    Sometimes you've just got to have a bit of faith and back it up with money. Not perfect, but if you wait for a perfect system you may never get to use something that you'd actually derive some benefit from. - Wrote Pete.

    You're quite right there Pete. Here I am waiting still in life for the perfect woman to come along...when in effect I should just shack up with any passing lady of the night that might take a fancy to me.

    Jest a little humour folks! Don't worry. Desperate but not that desperate!! I thought the slightly off the wall comparison funny though, in a somehow mildly amusing kind of a way.

  13. #113
    Ultra King Fossil Bluff's Avatar
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    I think the problem, such as it is, for some. Is when claims are made that (irrespective of quantitative values and measurement) that are just beyond the normal range that one would expect to find. I distinctly remember folk referring to 30 and 40 % greater efficiency through the use of poles some years back, obviously now a pile on nonsense, but folk were buying into this concept quite literally. Superfeet work for me (again anecdotal) but they do - but I havent read about them, I just vaguely heard about them and gave them a try, but that also coincided with the end of treatment measures prescribed by an orthotist so that must get the full credit where as I would credit superfeet with some 'maintenance value' in support of what the orthotist has done ratyher than the cure itself.

    I hope that make sense.

  14. #114
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    I never used poles until a couple of years ago when i started getting leg/back pain. I tried doctors, osteopaths, chiropractors, chinese medicine, etc, etc, so i added poles to the list. They seem to help, maybe placebo, but who cares, so i use them most of the time now. Jarring can cause pain in my spine and they definately help to reduce that.As i use tarps and tarp-tents, it makes sense for me to carry them anyway.

    As for the leg/back pain, an operation is probably on the horizon.

  15. #115
    Ultra King ptc*'s Avatar
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    An operation? Crivvens.

    Carrying a chest pouch, OMM/Raidlight/MLD etc, helps as well as it balances the load if you've got enough stuff in it. You're walking more than pulling your rucksack alongmaybe? Helps posture as well I find.

  16. #116
    Ultra King Parky Again's Avatar
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    walking poles. they are just walking sticks/crutches. do these work or would you demand to see evidence when the hospital issues you with them?

    saying evidence is anecdotal is nonsense and simple logic gives you the answer. when going downhill all your weight goes into your leg/knee etc. if a pole is loaded with some of your weight then the force exerted on your leg/knee is diminished. the fact that a lot of people just wave them around and get no benefit is their stupidity and not the product. what is "anecdotal" is that i think pacer poles are superior to "normal" poles giving a more natural posture.

    they assist going uphill because you can stand more erect, take some strain from your back, give more points of contact with the ground, give better balance and more slip resistance as you can push off with the ball of your foot.

    but then i have knee problems and poles definitely work when used correctly. whether they help with the flat bits only you can decide.

    back problems were mostly cured by just getting a comfortable sack with an efficient waist belt.

  17. #117
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    Jarring can cause pain in my spine and they definately help to reduce that. - Wrote Mike.

    I can really sympathise there with you Mike. An accident at work meant that in late 1997 I damaged my back. Eventually had to have surgery on it when it was found to have caused a bad prolapse of the disc there at the base of my spine. I had the bulging section cut out, as that was my specialist's advice to me at the time, and I went along with it. Now wish I had'nt done so, andhad it instead just fixed in place...but there you go. I still get pain every damned day too. But I will not let it put me off of the hill! Just means that my first aid kit on walks contains more pain killers than the average one is all.

  18. #118
    Ultra King Trevor D Gamble's Avatar
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    Carrying a chest pouch, OMM/Raidlight/MLD etc, helps as well as it balances the load if you've got enough stuff in it. You're walking more than pulling your rucksack alongmaybe? Helps posture as well I find. - Wrote ptc.

    Many of my friends over the years in UK and US forces say much the same things too, about chest webbing pouches systems there ptc.

  19. #119
    Ultra King Mikel el Bastardo's Avatar
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    "back problems were mostly cured by just getting a comfortable sack with an efficient waist belt."

    Wow! Have to tell the doc the cartilage isn't torn, and the bone isn't damaged. Imagine getting all those MRI scans and various other tests done for nothing. All i had to do was get a comfortable sack with an efficient waist belt!

  20. #120
    Ultra King Parky Again's Avatar
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    lol, mike. (perhaps inappropriately)

    i'm "lucky" with just having a slightly twisted lower spine and trapped nerves whereas the Angel has a couple of fused vertebrae.....always got to go one better

    lots of empathy in your direction mike.

    the weight on my shoulders was not comfortable for my back. the weight is now on my hips (less beer?)for much improved comfort.

    as the Angel reminded me on holiday, if she didn't tell me what my opinion was i wouldn't have any.

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