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Thread: Youtube and harmful videos

  1. #1
    Initiate Toot's Avatar
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    Youtube and harmful videos

    As I watched yet another awful Youtube video of yet another pyromaniac claiming to be a "Leave-No-Trace wild-camper" whilst proudly showing everyone the fire he had lit on the ground on Dartmoor, a thought suddenly struck me... I cannot be the only person in the world watching these videos in utter frustration and wanting their example removed from the face of the Earth - so what do other people think about things like this in relation to wild-camping and what, if anything, do they do about it?

    I have been wild-camping for more than 45 years. I soon discovered Dartmoor, close to where I lived. Wild-camping there is encouraged by Dartmoor National Park Authority (DNPA) and they provide several pages of guidance useful to wild-campers on their website. Amongst the DNPA information it makes plain several times that fires are not to be lit there. The same prohibition exists in other National Parks. This may well be because, according to the fire-brigade, 90% of harmful wild-fires in countryside locations are started by human action - small wonder then, that fires are banned in such places. DNPA provide Section 11 of the Dartmoor Commons Act 1985 for reading within their online pages, and item 8 therein states "No person shall light a fire on the access land, or place or throw or let fall a lighted match or any other thing so as to be likely to cause a fire. This Byelaw shall not prevent the lighting or use in such a manner as not to cause danger of or damage by fire of a properly constructed camping stove or cooker". All clear on what that means? Good, then I shall continue...

    Why then, are there an increasing number of fire-scarred areas on Dartmoor where people have had fires on the ground? Why can I see in just four Youtube channels I have watched today, four hideous video examples of harmful use of prohibited fires on Dartmoor where the producer claims "Leave-No-Trace" or "wild-camping" when it quite obviously isn't? And why, in the case of those four videos alone, are there almost 40,000 people subscribing to those channels and supporting the film-makers carnage, and what will result from more than 110,000 who have viewed it as an example of "wild-camping"?

    Are all these things perhaps related to what results in practice? I bet they are. One idiot who knows no better makes a harmful "how to wild-camp" video, tens of thousands of people who know no better watch it, and almost 40,000 idiots who know no better then subscribe to the channel with encouraging "likes" and "shout-outs" and remain eager to see more examples of this awful nonsense to follow. it's not funny, it's not clever, and it's not unique to Dartmoor. It is an abysmal education, from abysmal teachers, with abysmal results. Should anything be done about it, and if so, then what?

    What does anyone else out there think about this sort of thing, or do about it as it relates to their favourite hiking and wild-camping places? I regard it as a lack of adequate education issue initially, with poor educating examples on Youtube only magnifying that ignorance and spreading it further. My response is either to make critical comments on the video and mention ways of better practice in the hope they will be taken up rather than the video example being followed, or in the worst cases of outdoors madness I report it to Youtube in the hope the film will be removed.

    Comments?

  2. #2
    ‹bermensch
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    At long last we have an important subject raised on this forum!

    I don't follow Youtube or any other social media as I have better things to do with my time so I've not seen the offending video. But taking Toot's complaint at face value, what can be done about it?

    However wrong the sentiments expressed are, there is a freedom of speech issue which will make it unlikely that Youtube will delete the page. The best we can hope for is that responsible wild-campers will point out just how wrong the views expressed in the video are. Also, it might be worth alerting the National Park in the hope that the organization will respond.

    Hugh

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    Initiate Toot's Avatar
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    Well, I'm glad not to be a sole voice in the wilderness on this topic – thanks for acknowledgment from a respected voice, Hugh.

    The video-presented harm I speak of affects Dartmoor, an area local to me. The cause of the mess on the ground is easily discovered online. Similar things occur elsewhere (the Scottish lochs an obvious recent example) so I do wonder if there will be more comment on this topic. The way I see it, online examples of countryside harm being done by campers could adversely affect even the majority innocent of it. If that’s not a topic to bring interest or comment here then this forum has become barren indeed.

    One Youtube “Dartmoor wild-camp” video I recently watched showed a considerable fire lit beneath closely spaced conifers with low-level branches of the sort fire-starters dream of. It brought despair to see a self-promoting “expert” first use a gas-stove to cook his food on then for no discernible reason light a fire of sufficient proportions to burn all night. No attempt was made to hide the sawing/chopping undertaken to obtain the wood-pile he and his chums left, nor to hide signs of their fire on the ground when they departed. So much for “leave-no-trace”…

    I feel no regret in saying I reported this appalling video to Youtube – there is a facility below each video screen by which to do so. I gave quite a bit of detail to support my report but to be honest I didn’t expect it to have any effect. As Hugh suggests, “free speech” is often claimed as a waiver to abandon any standard. Would anyone in an organisation who’s business is based on the public posting videos online, actually care about anything else enough to remove a video? Bit of a “killjoy” action, isn’t it? Not good business-sense? What does a National Park matter, eh?

    To my surprise, within 48 hours the video was longer available. Result! I was particularly pleased by its removal as the poster had thousands of subscribers lending support to his Youtube channel, and many comments praising his awful antics and asking where they could copy them. I regard that as an online epidemic with Youtube being a carrier used to spread the harm these people are persuaded towards. In my view that epidemic needs stopping, and an antidote to be found. The fewer people able to view praise or copy such nonsense, the better the result will be on the ground for everyone.

    As Hugh also mentions, there is probably some merit in making critical comments on a web-page that shows harmful outdoors practice. I have tried this, seeing it as an opportunity to suggest better methods than the video presents. It is not always taken as well-intended. I have had vacant abuse in response, and several miscreants say they will do as they wish no matter what the law is or what anyone else thinks of their action. To combat that level of antisocial ignorance and what results from it isn’t easy – but I do believe it is worth an effort to do so.

    Will National Park Authorities take self-protective measures? It’s tempting to think so, but their limited resources are probably best applied to other things. Is it a police matter given a criminal damage angle? In some cases perhaps it is, but in current times I don’t see our police having time to patrol the countryside looking for fire-lighters and mess-creating beer-swillers. Do we turn a blind eye to our “fellow campers” and say it’s nothing to do with us? Possibly, but I’m rather fond of the wide permission that exists to wild-camp on Dartmoor and I’d rather not see foul activity from a few halfwits threaten a freedom many more people enjoy without abusing it at all. To my mind if we don’t look after our own interests and speak up then we abandon what we value to whatever or whoever else comes along – and look what that has resulted in North of the English border.

    Finally, I realise that posting of links has become a bit of an irritation here of late but I do wonder what other readers would make of a couple of “interesting” video examples of what I speak about. I will give links in a separate post that Admin can remove if they see fit – readers can get the popcorn out in the meantime (but be prepared to choke on it). As for the comments here, I believe they remain valid whether or not they bring interest or response.

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    Initiate Toot's Avatar
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    One of the worst examples of outdoor shenanigans I have viewed. Why anyone doesn’t realise what is wrong here, or what white smoke seen coming from a forest may result in is beyond me – and to suggest burying their spent smoke grenade is “leave-no-trace” practice is beyond laughable.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvOfdALNMEw



    An extended effort from the aptly named Adventure Madness channel on Youtube. Highlights of outdoors skills are visible at 0m10s, 6m38s, 14m10s, 45m45s, 50m10s, 1h05m15s,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMYLSn5qdsg



    A very short film this time (3.5mins). End-to-end viewing is recommended – it’s almost bearable. This wild-camper clearly has some knowledge of what isn’t good practice, but towards the end of the video he reveals that a better outdoors education really would be beneficial. Don’t accept a drink of water from this guy – his source is a bit suspect…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9url_DXBOpU



    Unfortunately, this is from a chap who doesn’t live far from Dartmoor, so he can be there quite often. His video is “bush-craft”? Odd, I thought there was more thought awareness and skill involved in bush-craft… The forest area shown is used for silviculture research purposes. Thought-provoking activity at 4m30s, 8m30s, 12m15s…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc0rRV371MQ

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    Super Moderator Metric Kate's Avatar
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    A good thing to take issue with, Toot, well done.

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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Am not against people lighting fires when camping that's being going hand in hand for millennia & I think always will. In saying that, there are better ways than leaving scorch marks everywhere you go. I haven't lit a fire in almost 7yrs, but if i did I'd either dig a hole, stone out the area or both.

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    Super Moderator Metric Kate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by padstowe View Post
    I'd either dig a hole, stone out the area or both.
    And this is precisely why I'm so strongly opposed to lighting fires whilst camping, unless on a shoreline where the evidence is going to be washed away pretty quickly. I'm a passionate believer in 'leave no trace', and I see too many traces of campers in the Brecon Beacons making their little campfires.

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    Initiate Toot's Avatar
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    Padstowe, how very illustrative your post is in relation to the points I am trying to make.

    By your description of the careful steps you'd take in open fire use, I assume you have no wish at all to do harm in the countryside, and believe you take all reasonable steps to prevent harm, especially by fire. So you'd dig a hole for a fire? First taking up a layer of grass and topsoil to replace later perhaps, when the fire is out, to hide all trace of your presence? Dig and use only an efficient Dakota Firepit even? In many places that would be commendable, but not on Dartmoor and I wonder despite all your care if you know why that is so?

    Let's put aside for one moment the Byelaw that prohibits fires. Let's say you follow the careful steps above and leave the place appearing exactly as you found it. No problem? Afraid not. A particular hazard of digging a firepit on Dartmoor is that it puts your heat source below ground level, and in many places on Dartmoor the ground below topsoil and grass is peat. This itself is a fuel that will burn (or rather smoulder and glow) perfectly well underground, spreading away from your source of ignition until eventually coming to the surface and igniting grassland or anything else flammable, perhaps several days later and over a wide area remote from your previous location. Sounds unlikely? Sorry, but it has certainly happened and hundreds of acres were burned as a result. It took several fire-crews several days to extinguish.

    That's the problem with accidental fires y'see - they can be started even by people who think they engage best practice, let alone the ones who don't.

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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Yeah that's why you stone out the hole & make sure you douse it with water before leaving it, so no peat burns. Not really rocket science, as stated above people have been doing it for years!
    Just cause you don't seem to show the knowledge of how to light safe fires doesn't mean that everyone else is ignorant on how to do it.
    (edit: I grew up camping & lighting fires in donegal, & to this day some 30yrs+ I still preach safe practice while lighting fires outside especially on peat ground where am ember can find a dry vein & smolder & spread, so your assumption of me not knowing about peat ground is completely unfounded)
    Last edited by padstowe; 06-06-2017 at 06:18 PM.

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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metric Kate View Post
    And this is precisely why I'm so strongly opposed to lighting fires whilst camping, unless on a shoreline where the evidence is going to be washed away pretty quickly. I'm a passionate believer in 'leave no trace', and I see too many traces of campers in the Brecon Beacons making their little campfires.
    Yeah if I have a fire I dig a hole & if I have a poo a dig a hole, what do you who are strongly against digging holes do with your poo?
    & where is the evidence on the shore line going to be washed to? You do of course understand that it may drift to some other shoreline & have burnt wood perch there.
    Please lets get over this whole idea that its ok to dig a hole for poo but not ok for what will be ash but the time the hole is covered, or that its ok for the remains of burnt wood to wash up in some shoreline just as long as its not the one you lit it at.
    Last edited by padstowe; 06-06-2017 at 02:18 PM.

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    Padstowe

    By taking extraordinary precautions, such as you outline, it may be possible to prevent any risk of a camp fire spreading. The point is that most of those who build fires don't effectively eliminate the risks as the videos posted by Toot amply demonstrate. Just consider the folly of lighting a fire in a forest full of leaf litter and dead wood!


    Consider, too, the possible results of a camp fire getting out of control. Last week I walked a section of the East Devon Way near Exmouth and crossed Woodbury Common which is a blackened desert after being devastated by a fire that burnt 100 acres, involved 20 fire crews, closed roads, and caused an hotel to be evacuated. The cause of the fire is not known but it demonstrates just how serious a fire can be.


    The lighting of camp fires on Dartmoor is specifically forbidden; it is also condemned in the countryside codes of all the constituent countries of the UK and the Republic of Ireland.


    Are you so special that you feel that you are entitled to ignore advice, applied through the British Isles, not to build fires in the countryside?


    Hugh

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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Hugh
    The point I was making was that camping & fires have gone hand in hand & like everything you need to be responsible for what you do or what can happen.
    As to ignoring advice, I have to admit that yes i do ignore a lot of advice especially when given on area's where camping is forbidding & not to camp there. So I take it you only ever camp in designated areas since after what you wrote you'd never feel entitled or think yourself so special to camp where you choose?
    Or is some kinda double standard going on there, like you agree with one thing so you don't do it but don't agree with the other so do do it?
    Sorry don't do double standards meself, but sure what ever rocks your boat
    (edit: I don't take extraordinary precautions I just use common sense & proper practice while lighting fires outdoors )
    Last edited by padstowe; 06-06-2017 at 04:01 PM.

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    Padstowe


    In general terms, wild camping is not illegal in mainland Great Britain except where by-laws have been enacted forbidding the practice as on National Trust property, MOD land, some beaches etc. A wild camper may be trespassing but, except in a few special circumstances that are unlikely to apply, trespass is not a criminal offence. If landowners can provethatdamage has been caused, offenders can be sued in the civil courts. The only realistic remedy that landowners have is to insist that you move on. In 70 years of wild camping, I’ve never been discovered nor, to the best of my knowledge, have I broken any of the by-laws forbidding camping. I have never lit a fire. When I leave early in the morning the only trace that I leave behind is the footprint of my tent in the dew.


    I don’t believe that I have double standards.


    Hugh


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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    Hugh
    Now let me get some things straight, I hate seeing hippie rings all over the countryside but am not against outdoor living. I am off the belief that safe & proper practice should be encouraged not outright bans cause what happens when you outright ban things is that people don't learn how to do things right & then you have muppets who come along & leave their hippie rings behind them or even worse give no thought to where or how their fire is & if the wind may take it.
    So whats to blame, the muppets or the utter lack of outdoor education?
    Personally I blame more the latter

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    If a case is only supported by feeble insult, or attempts to distract attention from reality, or denial of obvious facts, then I'm sorry but that stance is never going to win a debate because no part of it deals with the truth being discussed. It’s the equivalent of sticking fingers in ears and saying “La-la-la, I can’t hear you”. Immature. Insufficient. Ineffective.

    This issue truly isn't rocket-science. Look at the video examples. The principle being put up for discussion is very clear to see and very simple to understand, so why hundreds of people, perhaps thousands or more, fail to grasp it, think they can ignore it, or believe it doesn’t apply to them is beyond rational explanation. Also irrational and ineffective are many of the arguments commonly used in support of open fires when they are clearly inappropriate harmful or dangerous, and in some cases prohibited by specific Law put in place for good reason.

    Camping and fires have gone hand in hand for thousands of years. Indeed – so what? Swimming and water have also gone hand-in-hand for years, but that doesn't mean steps to avoid drowning aren't wise to take. In both cases even the most careful practitioners can cause or suffer harm. The difference is that swimming cannot be done without water, but wild-camping can be done without an open fire – that’s what camp-stoves are for.

    Similarly, a suggestion that digging a fire-pit is equivalent to digging a poo-pit is nonsense and no poor distraction is going to divert from the facts being considered here. Poo doesn’t set fire to grassland or trees when it’s in the wrong place nor does it ignite peat when it’s buried, whereas fire can do all these things. They are different hazards and cannot be compared like-for-like. That’s not an application of double-standards, but of reason and logic. It is fire under discussion as a major hazard here, not holes or poo, so let comments remain on-topic and not descend to playground level.

    No way can an ancient correlation between camping and fires be used to propose that camp-fires should be permitted today as if they never cause harm to the countryside or wildlife, or have never led to a costly wild-fire. Such a claim would clearly be false because too many of our wild-places show the evidence of harm caused by camp-fires, and videos posted online show exactly the same. Does the fire-brigade figure of 90% of wild-fires having a human element in their cause mean nothing? It is fact and current reality being put up for discussion here, not the past or illusion.

    Mention of stoning a fire-pit or dousing a fire with water again underlines how even those trying to adopt best practice can prove they do not. Unless the stoning of a fire-pit has no gaps whatsoever by which a flame can ignite peat, stoning cannot be guaranteed effective. As already said, once any amount of peat is ignited it may burn undetected and spread from a fire-pit over a wide area underground. Unless a camper has a thermal imaging camera amongst their kit, how do they know if peat is alight, how do they know how far it has spread or in which direction, how do they know how much water to use or where to pour it in order to douse the fire they started? The reality is they don’t know what hazard they have created, so cannot be sure it is dealt with.

    Again, look at the video examples – if a cinder from one of those fires set amongst resinous conifers has a tree alight, do those people think they will put it out? I doubt it, having seen how conifers and forest-fires burn. Will these campers be aware what their fire is doing as they sleep? No chance. As for the fire Hugh mentions, I too know of it – it is not the first grassland fire to start and burn out of control, it will not be the last, and they are only more likely where open-fires are lit. Grassland fires are destructive to wildlife and environment, hazardous to livestock and human and property, and take considerable costly effort to extinguish. This has been proven many times. Fact.

    I wonder, do any of the people in the videos know how dangerous what they do is – I mean are they uneducated and unaware, unknowing of countryside codes or laws or, or simply selfish and ignorant enough to do whatever they want no matter what? One may be accepting of education to better practice and results, the other place themselves beyond it and that is a foolishness I don’t understand and given the clear results I will not be one who condones or excuses it.

    Byelaws under the Dartmoor Commons Act 1985 stipulate that open fires should not be lit, but camp-stoves be used instead. This prohibition is clearly not intended as a stance against wild-campers and Dartmoor is the only place in England where wild-camping is officially permitted and DNPA do much to promote that activity. Prohibition of open fires there is intended to avoid environmental harm and the accidental wild-fires they can cause in an environment we claim to value. Again, fact, and not one it is proper to ignore.

    There is only one way to guarantee no harm or danger is ever caused by use of an open camp-fire, and that is not to light one. There are places where that is the only sensible course of action. There are however places and methods by which an open fire is not unreasonable. Runnage Farm is amongst other places on Dartmoor making such provision. Ivans place is well-known to the bush-craft community. Fires on moorland, in conifer plantations, or many other wild-places? No, that is not acceptable, and the sooner that is reflected by good practice the better it will be for all.

    To go back to the original point, if these examples shown by video are unacceptable, what will be done about it? What can be done to bring about a better example, better education, better result? Seeing harmful videos removed is a protective measure any reader could take. Pointing out harmful practices and suggesting better ways is a protective and helpful measure any reader could take. I believe it could become a highly effective process by which to achieve a common good, which is why I mention it - more food for thought. Ultimately, the good or ill of wild-campers in the countryside will be judged by what is seen on the ground there and that is surely up to each of us to determine.

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    Initiate padstowe's Avatar
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    You really don't want to look at my point at all & will try any analogy no matter how immature to prove yours. To get back to my first point " there are better ways than leaving scorch marks everywhere you go. I haven't lit a fire in almost 7yrs, but if i did I'd either dig a hole, stone out the area or both". You say "Swimming and water have also gone hand-in-hand for years, but that doesn't mean steps to avoid drowning aren't wise to take" Like steps in lighting fires in the wild?
    "
    Similarly, a suggestion that digging a fire-pit is equivalent to digging a poo-pit is nonsense and no poor distraction is going to divert from the facts being considered here. Poo doesn’t set fire to grassland or trees when it’s in the wrong place nor does it ignite peat when it’s buried, whereas fire can do all these things" Again complete failure to acknowledge safe practice! (& proper pits/holes don't burn grass!)
    "Will these campers be aware what their fire is doing as they sleep?" WTF, why is there a fire still lit when they are asleep, what does that have to do with anything of safe practice!
    "There is only one way to guarantee no harm or danger is ever caused by use of an open camp-fire, and that is not to light one" If you believe that to be true then I can only suggest that you never light one.
    Now my reply to your post wasn't that these people are doing right it was that camping & fires are ok when safe practice is used. For whatever reason you have refused to acknowledge that fact since all that you have offered in return in this debate is examples of utter foolishness with no thought to safe practice at all.
    My only real question at this moment to be honest is why would you even bother to retort since you don't seem that bothered even to read what has been written?
    Anyway, whatever, I talk about safe practice & you talk about unsafe practice. To each their own.


  17. #17
    There are places where it is safe and acceptable to have a campfire and all moorland definitely does not fall into this category. From many years experience of fighting moorland fires in the Peak District, I would confidently say virtually all of these were the result of human activity.
    Many of us have the skills to manage a camp fire so that the environmental impact will be minimal. Watching an alleged bushcraft video on Youtube will not imbue the viewer with these skills and that's where the danger lies.

  18. #18
    I think it is a very important to discuss such things. Good topic..

  19. #19
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    I agree with all TDan says and note his experience of moorland fire-fighting. One more voice of reason and intelligence gained from experience, it would appear.

    According to the fire brigade 90% of countryside fires have a human factor in ignition. Removing the human factor should therefore save the 90% of environmental damage these fires do, save time and cost for emergency services, and remove a danger to environment wildlife livestock and humans. I cannot think of good reason why any of that doesn’t make sense to strive for.

    It is true a fire can be lit that emergency services may not attend. If countryside fire-scars are any indication, firemen would be busy indeed to attend to all fires that are lit there and would benefit from putting out or be better not lit in the first place. So far as fire-scars go, let’s imagine they’re nothing to do with OM readers because we are all outdoors experts and value our precious wild spaces so would protect them from harm and loss by fire. Why then do wild-fires on moorland or in forests occur, and what causes fire-scars – after all, all these things do exist in the real world and they’re not created by fairies…

    In a protective mind, I know there is no need to light a fire to ward off attack by bears wolves or anything else that no longer lives on Dartmoor. For the sake of a camp I see no need to burn scarce and often protected wood that has taken decades to grow. Camp-stoves are widely available and perfectly adequate to cook outdoors meals upon. Many are cheaper and lighter than the saw axe knife and fire-steel used to create an open fire. Stoves are far less hazardous or harmful than an open fire lit on moorland, which is why wild-camping on Dartmoor is permitted in case of camp-stove use and why open fires are not. Accepting reality brings a unique permission in England to wild-camp on much of Dartmoor and I have no difficulty understanding or acknowledging the reasons behind it. Any ill that threatens that unique permission or place, I don’t look upon kindly. I don't see how anyone expects to permission to wild-camp somewhere to be gained if that means it'll be set on fire or scorched.

    There are many places I see no need for open fires, nor sense in their use. Despite that I see fires lit where personal desire or some associated ethos takes preference over genuine need, knowledge, example, Byelaw, safety, or common-sense. Where I see someone with a camp-stove also lighting an open fire, or fire-scars left on the ground, I always wonder what absence of thought leads to it. I believe the topic is one that may benefit everyone by thinking or talking about and responding to.

    Youtube videos showing awful use of fire are why I started this thread. These films are extremely poor educational material. The people who present them, or applaud the same, or ask or suggest where their antics can be copied, are a danger to themselves and to others and to our wild places. That danger is magnified where thousands who know no better see the result and think it’s OK to do and to copy. As it is online, so it may be on the ground – there is ample evidence to prove it. Where the antidote is, I am yet to determine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it cropped up in pages like these.

    My first response is not to use open fires in wild places – my needs can be met by camp-stoves and they are. I may also make critical comments on Youtube but believe it is more beneficial to make better ways known and to say why they’re better – learning and good results are gained more by comment and awareness – mere criticism or silence teaches nothing in this arena. In the worst video cases, Youtube will remove examples of mis-use of fire and if dangerous or harmful practice can be removed from sight of 5000 subscribers to copy then it’s worth reporting.

    I asked what others thought of this subject and what they did about it – if anything. It would seem 1700 people have looked at the topic, a few replied. That’s fine. Maybe a new awareness is going through Youtube instead. Maybe a lot of people are simply having a good think about the subject. Maybe some are quietly altering their practices, without comment. Some could be selling their axe to buy a stove – and there may be those as keen as ever to buy an axe!

  20. #20
    Mini Goon
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    Couldn't agree more Toot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Westacott View Post
    I don't follow Youtube or any other social media as I have better things to do with my time so I've not seen the offending video.
    Such a patronising statement posted on - guess what a forum is? Aye, social media. Put's a dent in your authority in the modern age that your opinion may have carried in the past with your writings.


    Quote Originally Posted by padstowe View Post
    Am not against people lighting fires when camping that's being going hand in hand for millennia & I think always will. In saying that, there are better ways than leaving scorch marks everywhere you go. I haven't lit a fire in almost 7yrs, but if i did I'd either dig a hole, stone out the area or both.
    As a hobby camping's barely been going 100 year rather than 1000's. Man has spend night out's in the wilds in the past & needed fire for warmth, protection & cooking.. Modern 'wild camping' is a long way from that need.

    If you need a fire now you're under-equipped. It's a 'want' not a 'need'. A pretty selfish one IMO. I know the attraction. Rocky river bank that'll get washed over at a push as MK suggests. But excavating earth etc - not needed.

    Unfortunately we live in an age where many folk feel they have to post video's or pictures of where they've been. It's almost like if there's no selfie or video it didn't happen! As a result there is a mass of shite & only a few gems - info overload. People learn from the posted shite. Hopefully one day the interest in 'wild-camping' will subside. Unfortunately the crap on you-tube will remain.

    I think the term 'Wild Camping' has a lot to answer for. I think it leads some people to think they're undertaking more impressive adventures than they actually are & increases the need to waffle on in front of a camera about it. 'Micro Adventures' is another. I've seen dramatic multi-part videos about life threatening survival situations which most old timers would just consider a normal wild winter weekend. FFS.

    Social Media makes some people lazy. How many questions do we see asking for suggestions for pitches & routes. Can lead to pressure on certain areas. The Brecon Beacons is an area that seems to top the league table for such questions. Glad I've walked that area in the past. Not keen to do so now.

    Social Media, blog etc - Fallen into that trap myself. Keep my input to a minimum now.

    Most of us are just going for a long walk & kipping out along the way. Sure - an element of skill is useful but it ain't rocket science & doesn't deserve a shite, shakey, overblown drama video on Youtube.
    Last edited by Ross M; 17-06-2017 at 04:20 PM.

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